Yes, everything was cold. Most of the deer meat was partially frozen as I had precut the pieces before freezin, and the pork while not frozen was cold with some of it approaching solid (1/2 hour in the freezer after cutting it in strips that my grinder can tear through). Didn’t see any schmere of the fat. As I mentioned, I only coarse grind my pork for summer sausage so that I get small pieces of fat in the final product. I like it to have a typical salami look rather than looking like a homogeneous mass like bologna. Something else I will watch for as well, but I do understand the need for it all to be cold.
Thanks
Peter
Non fat milk vs whole milk powder?
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I use whole milk powder in baking, but wondering why meat recipes ask for non fat milk as a binder?
Can I use either, or is there a different affect? -
Dave in AZ Military Veterans Sous Vide Canning Traeger Power User Arizona Dry Cured Sausage Dry-Cured Expert last edited by Dave in AZ
Terry Kostiw
TOO LONG, DIDN’T READ answer: use nonfat dry milk, not whole.I did a bunch of reading on dry milk over last 2 weeks. There is not much hard data… a LOT of internet posts by folks following recipes, but very little if any I could find from meat scientists. Data from recipe makers is fine, if they ever once ran a test of “make one with dry whole, one with dry nonfat, here are results”, or even just allude to past experience saying they HAD made such batches. But that believable post from a reliable source didn’t exist in the top 500 google hits under various searches (<<turns out google prioritizes general reader content, only once I got links for Dairy Science journals did I find good info). I’m sure many experienced sausage makers have done it, they just aren’t posting about it much. Maybe because every recipe already directs the use of non-fat, so they figure it’s covered? Don’t know.
Here is what I found, reading posts on the chemistry.
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Dry milk, while vs. Non fat-- USE THE NONFAT. The binding comes from the sugar lactose, which in nonfat makes up 50% of the product. Other components can be milk are 35 % proteins like caseinate, also a good binder and emulsifier.
The “binding” comes from ability to hold water without it breaking loose at cooking temps. The fat binding comes from fat being coated in these protein water structures and held in place, apparently by a loose bond to the lactose-water structure and milk proteins, though this bond was just referred to, I haven’t seen any writeups on the molecular structure or bonding sites.
–the two references I read on milk fat said the included fat took up bonding from the meat fats, and reduced the efficiency of the meat fat bonding
– also mentioned, milk fat soft at room temps, did not survive the bond at cooking temps. No chemistry shown for that one.
– lastly was the rancidity issue, apparently granulating and drying milk fat massively exposes it to O2 and leads to easy oxidation, and difficulty of storage in normal bags and for lengthy times. -
My main interest was actual data showing a difference between “hi temp dry milk” sold by sausage makers, and “low temp dry milk”, normal stuff sold in all stores. Difference being production temperatures of 130ish vs. 160ish. It is said the low temp common version doesn’t bind sausage as well, leading to some posters saying not at all. Apparently preheat temperature prior to spray drying process changes the product protein structures, or nature of lactose. I’m sure there is a study in the meat science literature but I haven’t found it yet… (edit, found some good research, will post below)
Anyways, sorry for long answer, your question just happened to coincide with a curent research interest;) I use a lot of dry milk for weekly yogurt, like you I’m wondering if I can just stock one version.
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Dave in AZ Thank you for this answer, AND the “Cliff notes”.
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No that was fantastic! Thanks!
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Dave in AZ Military Veterans Sous Vide Canning Traeger Power User Arizona Dry Cured Sausage Dry-Cured Expert last edited by Dave in AZ
Waltons sells a great binder from my actual use and experience,
“Sure Gel” which is Ingredients:Whey Protein Powder (Reduced Lactose Whey, Sodium Caseinate, Whey), Sodium Phosphate (33.33%), Hydrolyzed Gelatin (For Flavoring). <<< So this is dry milk with the lactose stripped out, but we don’t know if it is low temp or high temp. Sodium Phosphate is a catch all term for 6 to 9 actual phosphate chemicals, all with different properties and purchasable as actual correctly labeled products, but after several emails I still don’t know what this is, tripoly phosphate or sodium triphosphate or diphosphate etc. However, credit to Walton’s, Austin said they would find out from supplier and let me know.In any case, I know from many uses and experience that it is a great binder to prevent fat out and retain moisture. My guess is high temp NFDM, STTP, and gelatin… an easy way to add 2 of the top things I want to use for binding.
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Dave in AZ You touch a little on why I pretty much exclusively make my own spice blends instead of buying the Excalibur ones. The won’t provide sodium content, and that’s something I want to know.
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processhead Power User Regular Contributors Smoker Build Expert Bowl Choppers Nebraska Veteran Team Camo last edited by
TexLaw said in Non fat milk vs whole milk powder?:
Dave in AZ You touch a little on why I pretty much exclusively make my own spice blends instead of buying the Excalibur ones. The won’t provide sodium content, and that’s something I want to know.
Seasoning companies are understandably reluctant to disclose too much information about proprietary formulas.
Disclosing sodium/ salt content doesn’t seem like asking too much though when you consider that some folks are actively monitoring sodium intake for health reasons.
Paul
- How hard can it be?
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glen Regular Contributors Team Grey Sous Vide Canning Dry Cured Sausage Masterbuilt Power User Meat Hack Winner Veteran last edited by
processhead I think salt content should be required information due to health concerns.
I am sure the spice blend industry has or would vigorously fight that requirement since observant label readers would realize the spice blend they would pay $2.00 and up per oz. probably contains 50% or more of salt which would cost the maker $.01 or less per oz. -
processhead My thoughts, exactly. I would never ask for details on a recipe, but sodium content is important information that hardly gives much away.
I’d also be fine with a “no salt” product, but that’s another discussion for another thread.
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mrobisr Team Blue Cast Iron Sous Vide Canning Dry Cured Sausage Masterbuilt Military Veterans Power User Regular Contributors last edited by
TexLaw said in Non fat milk vs whole milk powder?:
Dave in AZ You touch a little on why I pretty much exclusively make my own spice blends instead of buying the Excalibur ones. The won’t provide sodium content, and that’s something I want to know.
And I do it for the challenge and to make the product exactly to my taste, but more to challenge my knowledge of the processes.
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mrobisr Team Blue Cast Iron Sous Vide Canning Dry Cured Sausage Masterbuilt Military Veterans Power User Regular Contributors last edited by
Dave in AZ Outstanding write up!
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mrobisr I agree. I also enjoy putting together my own blends for the same reason, but there’s something to be said for grabbing something off the shelf for a quick batch, especially if it’s tasty!
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cdavis Masterbuilt Canning Kamado Joes Regular Contributors Power User Sous Vide Oklahoma Team Camo last edited by
Dave in AZ great research. Thanks for sharing
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johnsbrewhouse Team Blue Regular Contributors Traeger Power User Sous Vide Canning Washington Gardening Veteran last edited by
@sumuenale I would ask you to cite your source on that fact because it sounds like a post that is trying to link to someone’s site for powered milk sales. The only place I ever had powered re-constituted whole milk was in Alaska and that was in the late 1960’s where fresh milk had to be flown in. Not the case anymore.
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johnsbrewhouse As a kid in the 80s I remember handing out cheese and powder milk at a church food bank. Other than a rare cooking project haven’t seen it since.
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bocephus Team Orange Power User Canning Masterbuilt Regular Contributors Veteran New Mexico Sous Vide Gardening last edited by
johnsbrewhouse We used to drink powdered milk as kids, only way it was good was ice cold in my opinion. Finally convinced our mom to mix it 50/50 with what we called real milk (from store), it was better then.
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kyle Regular Contributors Veteran Canning Team Blue Power User Sous Vide Wisconsin Gardening last edited by
johnsbrewhouse that was a good catch John. I thought it was an odd post. On;y thing I use powdered milk for is sausage and making a hot chocolate mix.
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Terry Kostiw
We used Nido dry Whole milk powder in our pork/beef summer sausage. The first thing we noticed is the large amount of gelatin that rendered out of this batch compared to previous batches. The next thing is that the casings (fibrous) did not stick to the sausages, pealing completely off the meat. Lastly the texture was VERY different than previous batches. It was very loose this time and not “gel-ed”
One other difference in this batch was we followed a slower cooking method this time. 120 degrees, 150, 190 for 5 hrs
So just so I’m clear on our mistake: Did the WHOLE dry milk powder contribute to the loss of fat and texture, or did we cook too slow.
TIA
txrancher -
salmonmaster Washington Canning Sous Vide Regular Contributors Team Camo Gardening Power User last edited by
txrancher first of all welcome aboard. I don’t have any experience using powdered milk in sausage. There’s plenty of others that do, and hopefully you’ll hear from them. Your smoking schedule might have caused some loss of fat. How long did the sausage stay at the 190° mark?
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salmonmaster
The recipe called for 5 - 9 hrs. Ours cooked for 5 hrs…Thanks for the response.
Txrancher
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